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Post by Unregistered Cherokee on May 13, 2012 13:05:34 GMT -6
This came about because I saw a link in the member's personal web sites thread, referring to The United Cherokee nation Western National Office. The web site address is theucn.com/index.html The address www.theunitedcherokeenation.com resolves to the shorter address. The problem is, this one is listed in the fraudulent group list available at Cherokee Nation of OK's web site. www.cherokee.org/Issues/FraudulentGroups/24959/Information.aspx Get the Fraudulent Group List, and you'll see them there. HOWEVER, go to UCN's web site that states clearly: ---------------------------- We are not a Federal Tribe we are an international tribal membership organization. Most Tsalagi (Cherokee) people who do not belong to a tribe or cannot get on closed or restricted Federal Government rolls are left to fend for themselves. ... "Just to make sure everyone who is considering joining with us understands who we are. This is The United Cherokee Nation (UCN); we are not the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, the United Keetoowah Band of Oklahoma nor the Cherokee Nation of North Carolina (Eastern Band). We are a Worldwide Tribal Membership Organization, we are not a Federally recognized tribe. We are your Brothers and Sisters and all of Tsalagi (Cherokee) decent and blood. You will receive no government benefits that I know of, from joining with us. We stand on our own feet, we pay our taxes and do not receive any government handouts. You will be able to meet and learn about your ancestors from those who are just like you. We are some of the 750,000 "Un-documented Cherokee"; we wish to "Gather" all of those who want a place to call home and a family to celebrate their heritage with. It's what is in your heart that makes you a Tsalagi, not the card issued to you by the Federal Government that says you have enough blood quantum and / or your ancestors were counted like sheep in a specificplace, at a certain time in the 1800 or 1900's. Although we do have some Federally registeredmembers who have also joined the UCN, some due to dissatisfaction to what is now happeningwith the Federal tribes. Any and all Tsalagi are welcome, period. We do not discriminate in anyway. We do not care from where you come, or how you got to this place in time, as long as you now are on the White Path with us. --------------------------- It seems clear enough, and I notified Julie Ross, Coordinator for Tribal Recognition Project of the Cherokee Nation of OK and referred her to the above. I asked, "Why is that group on the fraudulent group, still? "I just contacted the "Chief" and implored him to contact you to resolve this, as it posted about 4 years ago on a forum I am now on. Please advise." All she said was, "Thank you." I emailed her back, restating the question above. I'm awaiting an answer for her. Does the following explain her behavior and another dept. of the Cherokee Nation when I asked them, "Where does the Cherokee Nation stand on the issue of traditional beliefs vs Christianity?" (I did not hear back from them) www.manataka.org/page1334.htmlNow, I'm beginning to see that the political landscape of the Cherokee community is not so clear-cut like CNO paints it to be. There's the official CNO, there is the historical/cultural societies, there's the false tribe who pass themselves off as "tribes that promise you will receive benefits they they finally get federally recognized" with no proof or anything, and THEN, there's the group I mentioned above, theucn.com who seem to state clearly what they are and what they are NOT. The Manataka page seems to add fire to the picture in my mind of a fractious Nation who dis-enrolled the Cherokee Freedmen years ago and MAY appear to have been taken over by those of the nontraditional beliefs (though I have to say they are working to revive the language and the customs of the ancient Cherokees) on the one side, and the many Cherokees who are unregistered myself who would like to be a part of the Cherokee Nation (I don't care about the benefits from the gov't, as I already receive benefits for my deafness anyway). I'm new to the political aspects of this Nation, so I'm not taking sides in this thread and want as complete a picture as I can get. Please advise on this. Thank you.
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Post by Unregistered Cherokee on May 13, 2012 13:16:20 GMT -6
Let's add something else here... www.cleverthings.com/clever/people/Cherokee/citizenship.jsp---------------------------- Not qualifying as a Cherokee citizen does not necessarily mean you aren't a "Cherokee." A statement on the Cherokee Nation web site says: The Cherokee Nation does not question anyone's claims of heritage or ancestry, but merely points out the significant difference between claiming heritage and having citizenship in a federally recognized Indian tribe. The Nation encourages people of Cherokee heritage to take pride in and become active in heritage and cultural organizations even if they are not eligible for citizenship. Many of the reasons that Cherokee tribes use to justify the exclusion of some citizens are simply no longer valid arguments. I'll attempt to address each point individually, which will hopefully serve as a startng point for future discussions on tribal citizenship. ----------------------- Any comments on this particular page?
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Post by Lone4eagle on May 26, 2012 18:58:17 GMT -6
I've posted links from Manataka.org on NA history recently, some in the past, from Manataka™ American Indian Council. I trust the info so far, what I've read on their site.
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Post by jctenpenny on Jun 22, 2012 10:42:19 GMT -6
Unregistered, I'm part Cherokee on my maternal grandfather's side. I started looking into becoming a citizen of the Western Cherokee Nation a couple of years ago. I have done a LOT of research and can pretty much say that the Nation gets all the benefits of you being "officially" recognized by them and YOU get the shaft so I never joined. There are literally thousands of at-large Cherokees throughout the world who are citizens of the CN and thousands more who are not recognized by the federally recognized tribes. It's ironic and sad that the very people who were pushed off their land 200 years ago by the U.S. now use the same "measuring stick" of the federal gov't. to exclude people who want validation and inclusion. Unless you're a citizen of the CN living in the 14 specified counties, you no longer get the benefits of the CN. There are SEVERAL complaints about this in the Cherokee Phoenix newspaper (here's an example:http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/Article/Index/5459 ) There has been a ton of corruption up there in Tahlequah all through the 90's and they just got done having ANOTHER election for Principal Chief because the first one they had last year was so full of voter fraud on both sides, they had to throw the whole thing out. Check out wikipedia entries for Bill John Baker and Chad Smith and some of the crap they've tried to pull. These people act more like the white man with their greed and are more corrupt than politicians in Washington!!!! The fraudulent groups list they have contains EVERY name of any other group that's not federally recognized as an agenda to force unaffiliated Cherokees to join ONLY the CN. THEY get more money from Washington. All you get is a card that doesn't mean squat unless you live up there. You said you were not interested in the benefits, just the cultural and heritage aspect of your Cherokee background and that's awesome! If that's all you seek and you're seeking acceptance by other Cherokee, there are a lot better places to look than the CN. This United Cherokee Nation link you posted might be a good start. The cultural camps and museums and stuff they have in Tahlequah are worth it, but being recognized by the "REAL" Cherokee Nation isn't.
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Post by Unregistered Cherokee on Jun 28, 2012 18:19:20 GMT -6
Wado, JCTenPenny!
I believe what makes a real Cherokee is following the ancestors' ways that existed prior to Contact to the extent possible with the knowledge that you have now. Now, some people may want to mix beliefs of Cherokee and Christianity, but it's just not for me.
The problem I have is that my mindset and worldview is what may have existed before there were Cherokees, before there were Germans, before Romans. Before language, culture, and technology existed. And I lived that way because of my deafness for well over 7 years. I was diagnosed as being deaf at seven and a half, as no one knew all this time. It was eight and a half before I was exposed to religion, and by then, it was too late.
I have this amorphous world view that simply can't be explained using linear concepts such as language. You just have to simply be. The question is, can you remember a time when you didn't know the words for anything, you didn't know what time was or what the clock was for? What about the sun rising and the sun setting, with no idea that the earth was rotating, with the sun underneath at night? It survives intact and is still very much within me.
It may not even be possible to assimilate as Cherokee...
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Post by jctenpenny on Jun 29, 2012 9:23:11 GMT -6
No, I really don't remember having that. I was pretty curious as a kid and wanted to know why everything did what it did. I pretty much have a lot of the same questions I did as a kid but now I have a wife to tell me what I should REALLY be concerned with, when, and how often.... and not be concerned with "why". lol.
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 7, 2012 13:53:06 GMT -6
Not meaning to start an argument but to inform, from an unregistered, but recognizable Tsalagi, to another/others?
The reason Tahlequah, doesn't recognize you and has you on the fraud list is because too many people claiming that their ancestors ran to the hills during the removal and therefore didn't register, which if one would do there history and their Tsalagi history they would know the that we have been a VERY organized tribe. The US Government registered us whether we were present or not, by not only using prior rolls, such as Guillion Miller rolls, Chapman, and even the Census of the Cherokee Nation. THAT is how they could register a family member who was not present.
So those who claimed that they were not registered because they were hiding is just NOT a FACT, but MYTH.
Anyway, I'm sure this will light the fuse of many who want to continue a lie and a myth, but it's meant to inform and educate.
That is why the Fed Cherokee labels you as a fraud.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2012 7:16:08 GMT -6
Not meaning to start an argument but to inform, from an unregistered, but recognizable Tsalagi, to another/others? The reason Tahlequah, doesn't recognize you and has you on the fraud list is because too many people claiming that their ancestors ran to the hills during the removal and therefore didn't register, which if one would do there history and their Tsalagi history they would know the that we have been a VERY organized tribe. The US Government registered us whether we were present or not, by not only using prior rolls, such as Guillion Miller rolls, Chapman, and even the Census of the Cherokee Nation. THAT is how they could register a family member who was not present. So those who claimed that they were not registered because they were hiding is just NOT a FACT, but MYTH. Anyway, I'm sure this will light the fuse of many who want to continue a lie and a myth, but it's meant to inform and educate. That is why the Fed Cherokee labels you as a fraud. rezrazed could you post where this info could be found? I was never told my ancestors hid in the hills, I was only told my Great,great grandmother was full-blood Cherokee. Through my research of the area there were other tribes here such as the Shawnee, Chickasaw, others that at this moment I can't remember . I would like to learn more so if you can post where you got your info I would appreciate it!
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 8, 2012 10:50:16 GMT -6
Standsalone, it's not anything you'll find in print it is the utterances of people with miniscule bloodlines who have no connection to the community that their ancestor was from, and just plain wannabes. They claim that their ancestors ran to the hills to hide from the Government during the removal, and yes some did, the MYTH, is because they hide, their ancestor was not registered. If you were NDN during the removal, you were registered. They used Multiple Rolls, Cherokee Census and documentation, as well as family members. There are cases of a son in law still back east, while mother in law and his wife were removed to Oklahoma, they used her testimony as well as Cherokee documentation and the Guillion Miller Rolls to confirm, and registered him with the US Government. There are also cases of Children still in the womb being registered. This is all documented in the Cherokee Archives in Tahlequah. So, I'm sorry to be the burden of bad news but if someone is telling you that they were hidden so they couldn't be registered, were not allowed to be registered or refused to register, they are telling you a lie, whether they know it or not.
In the case of people running away as to not be registered, this sparks a nasty debate among many and the end result on the Federal recognized Cherokee opinion is: "If your family member ran away, instead of staying with their brothers and sisters, and not bleeding with them, then they defaulted their Cherokee status."
Anyway, just meaning to inform and hopefully break down some inconsistencies
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2012 12:12:36 GMT -6
Rezrazed, Thank you for the enlightenment! Is there a way to search the Cherokee archives? I have tried searching for my gggrandmother to find something that tells me the truth I seek, my great aunt told me I would never find anything on paper and I get really frustrated! Some of my cousins have been told the same thing, but as far as I know no one else has searched. I posted a pic of my gggrandmother on here, she was a Williams before marriage, her mother was a Bauserman. I found an old photo in a newspaper with a Bauserman celebrating a 50th wedding anniversary and a few of the people in photo look NA. By the way.....are you the same rezrazed on powwows.com?
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Post by Unregistered Cherokee on Jul 8, 2012 21:03:16 GMT -6
Not meaning to start an argument but to inform, from an unregistered, but recognizable Tsalagi, to another/others? The reason Tahlequah, doesn't recognize you and has you on the fraud list is because too many people claiming that their ancestors ran to the hills during the removal and therefore didn't register, which if one would do there history and their Tsalagi history they would know the that we have been a VERY organized tribe. The US Government registered us whether we were present or not, by not only using prior rolls, such as Guillion Miller rolls, Chapman, and even the Census of the Cherokee Nation. THAT is how they could register a family member who was not present. So those who claimed that they were not registered because they were hiding is just NOT a FACT, but MYTH. Anyway, I'm sure this will light the fuse of many who want to continue a lie and a myth, but it's meant to inform and educate. That is why the Fed Cherokee labels you as a fraud. Are you the same rezrazed who posted incendiary comments at the powwow web site? I made the comments because of my Dad, who was old enough to have learned from my great grandmother, who was born in 1866, of the lack of Indian registration on any of the rolls. That is no possible way that the government had the knowledge of "god" in knowing who was who and where. "Standsalone, it's not anything you'll find in print it is the utterances of people with miniscule bloodlines who have no connection to the community that their ancestor was from, and just plain wannabes." Doesn't that describe some people who are 1/256th Indian? There are a few like that at the Nation with very little connection with Indianness. I mean at least one lives in a big house with little cultural upbringing as an NDN. I think that an Indian with cultural upbringing deserves to have a post at the Nation, not someone with less Indian blood than myself, never mind someone with even less cultural attachment to Cherokee life. I have done my research, and thus far, I have nothing because I have not gotten access to paperwork that my family supposedly has. There is more to it than I know about. Hopefully, I will get that soon.
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 9, 2012 10:33:32 GMT -6
Rezrazed, Thank you for the enlightenment! Is there a way to search the Cherokee archives? I have tried searching for my gggrandmother to find something that tells me the truth I seek, my great aunt told me I would never find anything on paper and I get really frustrated! Some of my cousins have been told the same thing, but as far as I know no one else has searched. I posted a pic of my gggrandmother on here, she was a Williams before marriage, her mother was a Bauserman. I found an old photo in a newspaper with a Bauserman celebrating a 50th wedding anniversary and a few of the people in photo look NA. By the way.....are you the same rezrazed on powwows.com? You'll have to just start with yourself and work back, if there is an actual connection, you will find it. the hardest part is finding a member on ANY of the rolls. Just because you find a similar name, doesn't mean it's your family, you'll have to find name and connect with lineage. You can find the rolls on line. For anything else you might need, you can contact Cherokee headquarters in Tahlequah and yes I am that rezrazed
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 9, 2012 10:44:29 GMT -6
Are you the same rezrazed who posted incendiary comments at the powwow web site? I made the comments because of my Dad, who was old enough to have learned from my great grandmother, who was born in 1866, of the lack of Indian registration on any of the rolls. That is no possible way that the government had the knowledge of "god" in knowing who was who and where. "Standsalone, it's not anything you'll find in print it is the utterances of people with miniscule bloodlines who have no connection to the community that their ancestor was from, and just plain wannabes." Doesn't that describe some people who are 1/256th Indian? There are a few like that at the Nation with very little connection with Indianness. I mean at least one lives in a big house with little cultural upbringing as an NDN. I think that an Indian with cultural upbringing deserves to have a post at the Nation, not someone with less Indian blood than myself, never mind someone with even less cultural attachment to Cherokee life. I have done my research, and thus far, I have nothing because I have not gotten access to paperwork that my family supposedly has. There is more to it than I know about. Hopefully, I will get that soon. I am the same rezrazed that had a problem listening to the same old violin playing yes. 1817 Reservation Roll (those requesting a reservation). The 1817 treaty allowed for a six hundred and forty acre life estate per head of household, which upon the death of the grantee, or abandonment of the land by the grantee, reverted to the state; 1817 Emigration Roll (1817-1835 Old Settlers) 1835 Henderson Roll (also called the Trail of Tears roll) 1848 Mullay Roll (resided in North Carolina). 1851 Old Settlers Roll This is the Roll of those still alive in 1851, who were already resident in *Oklahoma* by 1839, when the emigrants arrived. 1851 Siler Roll (Cherokee East of the Mississippi) 1852 Chapman ROLL (Cherokee East of the Mississippi) 1852 Drennen Roll (Emigrant Cherokee in Indian Territory). 1854 Act of Congress Roll 1860 Census (of whites in Cherokee Nation) 1867 Tompkin Roll 1867 Census of Cherokee East of the Mississippi 1867 Kern-Clifton Roll of Cherokee Freedmen, January 16, 1867. 1869 Sweatland Roll 1880 Cherokee Census 1880 Lipe Roll 1883 Cherokee Census 1883 Cherokee Roll . 1883 Hester Roll (Cherokee East of the Mississippi) 1886 Cherokee Census 1890 Cherokee Census 1890 Cherokee Payment Roll 1890 Wallace Roll (of Cherokee Freedmen in Indian Territory) 1893 Cherokee Census 1894 Starrs Roll . 1896 Old Settlers Payment (for Descendants of Old Settlers) 1896 Cherokee Census 1898-1902 (1914) Dawes Roll So if your claims are true, AGAIN, same as the other member from pws told you, they would be listed. Otherwise all you have are STORIES. So NOW there are 18 rolls your ancestor WOULD have been listed on. If the story goes to he, "ran to the hills", then we will all know you are full of it, because with ALL of these rolls and census, the US Government knew who was who and where they belong, therefore, you were registered. Even if you died, your family was linked to you, there was no lost tribes or unregistered Cherokees. All those coming out of the wood works claiming otherwise are, well, the only way to say it is, they are frauds. Now that I have my bulletproof vest on, you may fire when ready Grizzly!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 11:40:37 GMT -6
I'm the same Stands Alone on powwows.com
Since you have your bulletproof vest on and ready, I'm gonna get a nice comfy seat and watch the sparks fly ;D
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 9, 2012 12:02:16 GMT -6
Since you have your bulletproof vest on and ready, I'm gonna get a nice comfy seat and watch the sparks fly ;D What? No popcorn or pizza, or nothing?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 12:08:01 GMT -6
I'm just hoping things don't get so heated my puter catches fire! ;D
Sorry forgot....large buttered popcorn and a can of Dr. Pepper!
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 9, 2012 12:52:46 GMT -6
Shouldn't be, for a couple reasons, 1. I'm on her turf now, so I gotta KINDA behave, lol 2. I haven't felt the need to have to call a spade a spade as of yet
And what do you mean a can? 2 liter or go home. ROTFLOL
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -6
Make it a twelve pack
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 9, 2012 13:26:12 GMT -6
You're on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:49:46 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 14:04:27 GMT -6
Funny but this song just popped in my head:
An tic i pa tion is making me wait It's keeping me wa it ing!!
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Post by Unregistered Cherokee on Jul 9, 2012 17:38:13 GMT -6
I'm the same Stands Alone on powwows.com Since you have your bulletproof vest on and ready, I'm gonna get a nice comfy seat and watch the sparks fly ;D Not going to happen, Standsalone. Rezrazed, this is my final warning. Show more respect towards people. Have you forgotten the traditional Cherokee gesture of avoiding conflict and backing away or at least attempting to discuss this in a conciliatory manner? Now, please read carefully. It was my DADDY who was half-Indian. He passed away at 82 in 2000. I have our ancestors worked back 5 generations previous to me, and the older of the couple of that generation was born 1782. This is my grandmother on the right: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=54433616This is my aunt, her sister: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=26820519This is my great-grandmother: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=26820323All these photos I did not put up nor create the memorials, as I'm not into that sort of thing. I have other pictures of these women taken elsewhere at different times. I have one photo of my g-g-grandmother in her clothing that looks pioneer, taken when she was in her 70s fairly close to 1900s. My Dad looked very much like her. Records show that the first recorded couple were born in Virginia and South Carolina. Their daughter was born in Tennessee in 1838. And the census records for Nacogdoches, Texas, shows the family to be in Texas by 1850. How long they had been there, I don't know. All generations after that were born in Texas. Where would I look other than the normal rolls where Cherokees would be found in?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 19:35:25 GMT -6
I was just trying to add some humor
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 10, 2012 8:20:57 GMT -6
Rezrazed, this is my final warning. Show more respect towards people. Have you forgotten the traditional Cherokee gesture of avoiding conflict and backing away or at least attempting to discuss this in a conciliatory manner? Did I miss the FIRST warning? And exactly what as I being warned of? Did you forget code of ethics to never take your personal feelings from what happened on one board to another? Just saying You might want to brush up on the Native humor, I do believe I even posted right up here on the PUBLIC forum, that I had to do at least a little behaving? In otherwords, lighten up a little and put that thick skin to use alright. Now in regards to: Now, please read carefully. It was my DADDY who was half-Indian. He passed away at 82 in 2000. I have our ancestors worked back 5 generations previous to me, and the older of the couple of that generation was born 1782. This is my grandmother on the right: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=54433616This is my aunt, her sister: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=26820519This is my great-grandmother: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=26820323All these photos I did not put up nor create the memorials, as I'm not into that sort of thing. I have other pictures of these women taken elsewhere at different times. I have one photo of my g-g-grandmother in her clothing that looks pioneer, taken when she was in her 70s fairly close to 1900s. My Dad looked very much like her. Records show that the first recorded couple were born in Virginia and South Carolina. Their daughter was born in Tennessee in 1838. And the census records for Nacogdoches, Texas, shows the family to be in Texas by 1850. How long they had been there, I don't know. All generations after that were born in Texas. Where would I look other than the normal rolls where Cherokees would be found in? None of that means anything to me, (in all honesty, and with all due respect), I'm not a genealogist nor have I ever claimed to be, but you and countless others were told what you needed to do on the other board. Start with yourself and work backwards, the rolls are online, if there is something that gets in your way, Tahlequah is always a phone call or email away. As it has been stated before, if ANY of your ancestors were ever on a Roll, you have proof of lineage. But for tribal enrollment, you need (depending on the "lack of better term because Cherokee don't have "Bands")to meet requirements for each band. Blood quantum per bands requirement and lineage to an ancestor on the DAWES. Not being able to meet those requirements don't make you any less of a Cherokee, it just makes you ineligible for enrollment. That being said, if you have an ancestor anywhere in the wood pile that is in fact a Cherokee, THEY ARE ON A ROLL, all you have to do is research it. If they are not on a roll, they either 1. Lied or 2. Lied The only other POSSIBLE explanation is if they were another tribe. And so you'd have to find out which then check that tribes rolls
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2012 8:52:10 GMT -6
Now, please read carefully. It was my DADDY who was half-Indian. He passed away at 82 in 2000. I have our ancestors worked back 5 generations previous to me, and the older of the couple of that generation was born 1782. This is my grandmother on the right: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=54433616This is my aunt, her sister: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=26820519This is my great-grandmother: www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=26820323All these photos I did not put up nor create the memorials, as I'm not into that sort of thing. I have other pictures of these women taken elsewhere at different times. I have one photo of my g-g-grandmother in her clothing that looks pioneer, taken when she was in her 70s fairly close to 1900s. My Dad looked very much like her. Records show that the first recorded couple were born in Virginia and South Carolina. Their daughter was born in Tennessee in 1838. And the census records for Nacogdoches, Texas, shows the family to be in Texas by 1850. How long they had been there, I don't know. All generations after that were born in Texas. Where would I look other than the normal rolls where Cherokees would be found in? So are you related to the person who added these photos, gayla vaughn brink?[/quote]
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Post by Unregistered Cherokee on Jul 10, 2012 13:02:45 GMT -6
Did I miss the FIRST warning? And exactly what as I being warned of? Did you forget code of ethics to never take your personal feelings from what happened on one board to another? Just saying You might want to brush up on the Native humor, I do believe I even posted right up here on the PUBLIC forum, that I had to do at least a little behaving? In otherwords, lighten up a little and put that thick skin to use alright. Now in regards to: None of that means anything to me, (in all honesty, and with all due respect), I'm not a genealogist nor have I ever claimed to be, but you and countless others were told what you needed to do on the other board. Start with yourself and work backwards, the rolls are online, if there is something that gets in your way, Tahlequah is always a phone call or email away. That being said, if you have an ancestor anywhere in the wood pile that is in fact a Cherokee, THEY ARE ON A ROLL, all you have to do is research it. If they are not on a roll, they either 1. Lied or 2. Lied The only other POSSIBLE explanation is if they were another tribe. And so you'd have to find out which then check that tribes rolls I TOLD you, you were being disrespectful with your disrespectful language. I will not have you divide up this forum with your divisive tone. You still are being disrespectful by challenging me in the first paragraph. Remember, I can't put you on moderation. I can only ban you. I have already called these people, and they refused to tell me if they had a copy of my grandmother's headright papers. I gave them every name in the family, and nothing came up on the Dawes roll.
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 11, 2012 8:37:15 GMT -6
Then as I said, if not on the DAWES, you might want to look at the possibility that Cherokee is not the tribe your ancestor if from. there were several Nations and/or part of nations that were removed with them, you might want to check their rolls.
I don't know what else to say, the process is the same for everyone, no matter how much a person might not like it, agree with it, or want to change it, it is what it is, and there is not verifiable alternative other than just stories, the Rolls and Census' are verifiable, not on the roll, then not Cherokee. Check the Rolls, of the Catawba the Choctaw, Wichita, Seminole, etc etc etc.
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Post by Unregistered Cherokee on Jul 17, 2012 10:50:27 GMT -6
I have been away for the last few days to mourn the loss of a very dear friend to a drunk driver...
The only thing I want to say at this point, rezrazed, is that you are asking me to take as fact that my father had lied to me. That he is really not Cherokee or even Indian at all, that the entire family cooked up the story of being Cherokee and passed it off to me, Dad included. Who am I to believe if I can't believe my own family? How can they possibly get their own tribe mixed up when the last full-blood Indian is my Grandmother? She had headright papers, and for "privacy reasons," the Cherokee Nation won't tell me if her papers are on file.
It feels like to me you are asking me to disconnect completely from my Dad's family for lying to me. My much older siblings knew my grandmother for over 20 years before she died, and my Dad knew my great-grandmother for a handful of years before she died in 1930. If what you are saying is true, then I have no choice to but to abandon that part of the family just as they have me.
I don't know what to do at this point and am considering leaving the Indian world behind in favor of my own world that I KNOW exists for me in the here and now. That is ALL I can trust at the moment. That is the only place where I feel safe.
I don't have contact with family members who supposedly know about the connection, and I have tried to reach them, and they have not reached back. I will be relocating to be closer to the other side of the family, since they are wonderful, loving, and LIVE LIFE regardless of their age. I always have a wonderful time when I visit them. I'm willing to travel much further to see them than I am willing to see family much closer who for some reason don't want me in their lives.
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Post by rezrazed on Jul 17, 2012 13:14:51 GMT -6
I have been away for the last few days to mourn the loss of a very dear friend to a drunk driver... Sorry to hear about your loss The only thing I want to say at this point, rezrazed, is that you are asking me to take as fact that my father had lied to me. That he is really not Cherokee or even Indian at all, that the entire family cooked up the story of being Cherokee and passed it off to me, Dad included. Who am I to believe if I can't believe my own family? How can they possibly get their own tribe mixed up when the last full-blood Indian is my Grandmother? She had headright papers, and for "privacy reasons," the Cherokee Nation won't tell me if her papers are on file. I'm not asking you to do anything, but merely passing off information from tribal headquarters. How can they possibly get their own tribe mixed up when the last full-blood Indian is my Grandmother? Believe it or not, it happens. A LOT! Many times it's because a child of a mixed family, (native and non native) doesn't mention it until they are on their death bed, so then their children who are coming into senior stage of life starts looking. So by the time it comes out, usually it's not sure exactly which tribe. They might know Ok is where they are from so they instantly assume Cherokee. it's LONG tedious work but if it's there it will be found.
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Post by jctenpenny on Aug 1, 2012 11:53:05 GMT -6
I think I'll take the troll-bait.
Rezrazed, You said in an earlier post "All those coming out of the wood works claiming otherwise are, well, the only way to say it is, they are frauds." Odd, the Cherokee Nation said the same thing about the United Keetoowah Band not that long ago until they got federal recognition.
In a post above here, you said, "Not being able to meet those requirements don't make you any less of a Cherokee, it just makes you ineligible for enrollment. "
Yet, in the very next line you say, "That being said, if you have an ancestor anywhere in the wood pile that is in fact a Cherokee, THEY ARE ON A ROLL, all you have to do is research it. If they are not on a roll, they either 1. Lied or 2. Lied" So which is it???
I agree with you that there are plenty of "wannabes" out there, but as I stated in MY previous post on this thread, being a Cherokee does not equal being a citizen of the nation. I'm only 1/64th Cherokee! But because I can trace my ancestral line to the rolls makes me "more" of a Cherokee than someone who has more blood in them but can't find a link to the rolls? This kind of backwards thinking is what keeps me from doing the citizen thing. STILL doesn't make me any less Cherokee. Nor anyone else, for that matter.
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